Speaking The Truth with Erik DaRosa and Marc Fernandes of The From Survivor to Thriver Podcast

Speaker 1 (00:02)

Hi and welcome to Cause bods. I'm your host, Matthew Passy. Here at Cause Bods, we have one simple mission to highlight the amazing folks who are using podcasts as a way to raise awareness for good causes and make the world is a better place, whether it's in their own local community or they're taking on global issues. Please visit us@causepods.org where you can learn about our guest show, their favorite charitable cause, join our Facebook group with resources for Cause based podcasters and find a link where you yourself could be a guest here on Causepods. Again, that's all@causepods.org. All right, everyone taking you out to Colorado.

Speaker 2 (00:42)

We are chatting with Eric Dorosa and Mark Fernandes. They are the cohost of the From Survivor to Thriver podcast. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us here on call spots.

Speaker 3 (00:52)

Morning, Matthew. Thank you so much for having us. It's a real honor and I really love your mission and what you're doing and helping other podcasters kind of highlight the social good that they're doing in the world.

Speaker 4 (01:05)

For sure. Thank you, Ditto. And it is such a cool thing to be able to support other people in the same sort of arena but for many different purposes. So good on you, man.

Speaker 2 (01:15)

Oh, thank you very much. It's been a lot of fun. I've got to meet a lot of really cool and interesting people and hopefully help out a lot of really great causes. You guys, you are all about mental health, mental health awareness, mental health conversations, something we've definitely talked about here before on the show. But let's talk about your backgrounds and before we start hitting record, you guys are telling me that, weirdly enough, you grew up close to each other but didn't know each other. Then you met recently in Colorado. So I guess without going through the full bio of everything, let's just go to how did you guys meet and how did you go from meeting to wanting to do a podcast on mental health?

Speaker 4 (01:57)

So my background is actually in theater and film production, so I lived in New York. I grew up on an hour south of Boston, Mass. In the town called Fall River. Eric grew up in Somerset, Mass. But then in 2003, my wife's job moved us from New York City to outside of Denver, Colorado, and I ended up in the ski industry at that point. So when I met Eric, I had actually been working in the ski industry, teaching and training other instructors for about eight years. And he and his lovely wife Amy, and you'll hear us refer to the Amy's because my wife is also named Amy. They spell it different, though. Walked into our children's center at the ski resort here in Snowmass, and they were asking for my boss, and I was like, hey, who are you? Where are you from? And he's like, oh, I'm from Somerset. Mass. And in classic Massachusetts, I'm like, what? No way, dude. I grew up and so became fast friends very quickly then. And we have a similar arc. Eric and his wife Amy were in New York City a lot longer than Amy and I were.

Speaker 4 (02:55)

They met at Brandeis. My wife and I met at Boston University. Eric and I both have the luck of we joke all the time about marrying up, both in brains and beauty, and our wives are bad asses, so we're super lucky in that way. And then it evolved. We've always had sort of a deep friendship, and he and I had spoken a lot about some of our own mental health struggles through different parts of our life and at different times. Eric has become close with my mom and some of my other family members, and I've become close with his brother and his sister in law and the kids. We realized that we were sort of rare is the fact of a couple of 40 something dudes who had actually talked about how they felt and how mental health had impacted our lives at different times. And then my dad passed away in 2018 and I went through a pretty tough time and Eric was a huge help to me. And then we all went through a global trauma during the Pandemic. And I'll let Eric kind of take over from here because this is where he wrote a very incredible blog post about kind of his own mental health journey and leading into the pandemic and how different he thought things were.

Speaker 4 (04:02)

And that kind of led to the birth. From Survivor to driver.

Speaker 3 (04:05)

I had just gotten back from a vacation in November of 2020, and we were still in the throes of the Pandemic. And when I landed here in Colorado, I looked up at the mountains and I saw all the snow, and it quickly dawned on me that the prior ski season, it was March 14 of 2020, shut down the governor, shut down all of the ski resorts, and we never really had a chance to recognize and to mourn the end of that ski season. It's how Mark and I make our living. It's what we do all winter long, and we also spend a lot of time skiing with friends and it's really good for our own mental health. And so it was in that moment that I realized not only had I not mourned the prior ski season, but I really didn't know what was in store for the upcoming ski season. COVID was still we didn't have vaccines. The resorts were not sure if they were going to open or not. And so I started to feel some of my own anxiety creep back in and OCD and intrusive thoughts. And then I realized that if I was experiencing that, and I had already been through call it a decade plus of treatment, I could only imagine what other people were experiencing and not speaking about.

Speaker 3 (05:25)

I had hit it very well, for over three decades, my own personal struggles. And so as Mark alluded to, I wrote a piece which I intended to be a blog post and wasn't really sure how or where I was going to get it published. And I was at his house and as all of our fun conversations usually do, they took place over the kitchen island. And I was telling him what I was doing and out of nowhere I said, you know what? I think we should start a podcast. And I saw Mark's reaction, knowing full well I had never listened to a podcast before. Mark had done I think it was a ten or 15 episode podcast with our therapist during the beginning of Kova to help people move through some of those challenges and live a better life during the real time of the lockdown. And so we started chatting. I had a name that I wanted to use and he and my wife both smartly said, I think Elton John is going to sue you within 30 seconds. We're not going to do that.

Speaker 4 (06:27)

Even if you didn't sue us, we weren't willing to enter the negotiation.

Speaker 3 (06:30)

Exactly.

Speaker 4 (06:33)

We're starting this with my SoundCloud account that I'm already paying for and nothing. So we're going to come up with something else.

Speaker 3 (06:41)

In December of 2020, the podcast was born. And as I look back now, at the end of the day, it's really to help and inspire others on their own personal journeys through destigmatizing without desensitizing mental health conversations. And more than anything, letting people know that they're not alone on their journeys. There's hope. There's hope and there is a way through. And Mark and I feel in many ways that our podcast is also there to show other people that there is a way through without having to suffer in silence like we did for so many decades.

Speaker 2 (07:20)

I think there's a lot of folks who want either don't recognize that what they are going through is in fact a mental health issue. They just think it is what it is or that's what you do or toughen up or whatever moment is for that person. But then there are those folks who maybe even recognize that something's going on, but then there is that stigma of seeking mental health. So what are the ways that you try to encourage folks to recognize that mental health services could be an important part of regular, just health care? And then how do we get past this stigma that if you go to a therapist or if you see a psychiatrist that is going to put you in a camp of people who should be in a straitjacket or in a facility.

Speaker 4 (08:14)

I mean, we really approach it from the dude perspective. Like, if your ankle hurts, you go see an orthopedist. Right? And Matthew, your point of that? The stigma is actually a huge thing. And that's where we really feel like the podcast is an important piece of that because we really just want to shift the conversation at the front end to change things. Right? One of the things I always do, the ankle injury, one of the things Eric talks about is cancer. Right? In the people wouldn't even say the word, right? They called it the big C, and now people are wearing ribbons. There are marches, people are raising money, awareness and things like that. And for us, I like to talk about mental fitness. Is fitness being well, our brains are a huge part of that component, that we're only beginning to understand how that works. Right. Where the idea of neuroplasticity and the fact that the brain actually regenerates itself constantly as we're learning and changing behaviors is a very recent science phenomenon. They've really only been for about the past decade that we even really realized that that's what's going on. So we feel there's no better time than now, and it actually doesn't matter how the conversation starts, the conversation must start.

Speaker 4 (09:30)

And your point about the awareness of this is something that everyone goes through or doesn't. The thing that we find a lot is that people are convinced, especially men, when stuff like this is going on, that no one else has these thoughts or feelings. And we really do think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we don't talk about it, especially. Eric and I are pretty much dead spot middle gen Xers, and we absolutely come from the feral upbringing of like, yeah, go ahead and sort that out. You're going to be fine. I was a full on latchkey kid. I was lucky enough or unlucky enough that some of my mental and emotional issues at a young age became too much for my parents to handle. So at the age of seven, I actually saw a panel of psychiatrists and doctors at a mental hospital in Rhode Island called Bradley Hospital. It changed my perspective, but I'll be honest, it didn't push me into the realm of thinking that was totally normal. Part of that I felt a little singled out or that I was strange, different, weird, which we're all, by the way, strange, different, weird in our own way.

Speaker 4 (10:39)

And that's okay. But it didn't really occur to me until a bit later in life that a lot of people struggle with these kinds of things and that it is really no different than any other physical or health issue. That with some education, sometimes some medication, different types of treatments, that's one of the coolest things for us on the podcast is we've had people from the realm of PhDs who are in the forefront of dealing with neuroplasticity to spiritual healers who've taken groups down to South America to do an Ayahuasca journey to try to deal with their own depression and thoughts. So I would say our biggest thing is really just being inclusive and just being like, it doesn't matter what it is. If you feel like there's something going on, reach out, speak up, find the answers that you need because they're out there. And especially in the sense of looking at what's going on in the political space and the mental space. Nowadays, with the amount of suicide we're seeing, the amount of suicidal ideation, especially among adolescents, teens, men in their fifty s and sixty s are the highest percentage. It just needs the attention that hopefully we're pushing it towards getting.

Speaker 2 (11:49)

You brought up a couple of things that piqued my interest. One is this idea that you first started to see folks when you were seven and it was strange and you felt like an outlier as a result of that. And I wonder if kids going to some sort of introductory therapy at seven or eight is just part of like annual checkup or twice a year check up kind of a thing. Would one, destigmatize it a lot to make them a little bit more comfortable with the idea? And then three, make it so that a professional can spot something early so that we're not waiting until we're 2030 or in a bad place, doing something terrible and becoming a national news headline. And then, of course, the other thing we kind of want to talk about in that realm is there enough bandwidth in the system for everybody because there are folks who want to get help and they're told, yeah, sure, we've got an opening. We'll see you in twelve months from now. Cool, thanks.

Speaker 3 (12:55)

Yeah. I think taking your first question first. In fact, I'm traveling to Louisville, Kentucky next week, and I'm speaking to a group of high school students. And one of the important things that I've been trying to share in my own message both to students but also to parents, is it's never too early to start those conversations. And when I say starting the conversation, I think about when I was young, coming home from school, and we'll use the seven or eight year old example, and you walk in the door and parents always say, how was your day? And our answer is always, good. It was fine. We don't want to talk about it, and we move on. And Mark and I, one of the things we've done through the show and through speaking to other people is getting across this idea. One of when you ask somebody, ask it in a way where you really want to hear an answer, where you're not looking for just a one word report, where it's, how are you doing? And ask it with some intention so that you can really find out in this case with parents and kids, how your kids are doing and giving them that space to be able to share with you what's really happening in their day.

Speaker 3 (14:14)

Because as we discussed earlier, there is a tremendous amount of stress not only being a student, but now you throw in covet and going back to school. And unfortunately, school shootings are something that are here and I feel like they heard or stay. And so there's all these pressures that are building on kids nowadays. And I really like your idea of we go to see the pediatrician to have our yearly or semi annual health checkup when we're kids. And I think we should also have something similar for kids when it comes to a mental health checkup. Here where Mark and I live. There's an organization called Aspen Strong who we've partnered up with, and one of their taglines is do a check up from the neck up. And so they want to make sure that when you do your full physical, that also includes what's happening from a cognitive standpoint, not also just from a physical standpoint.

Speaker 4 (15:17)

And the thing that I've seen is these next generations coming up are more aware and better at this stuff than we are. And I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm not saying we've turned the corner in any way, but Matthew, I don't know if you've seen the doctor recently, but even Eric and I have had this conversation. The conversations we're even having with our physicians have changed. Ten years ago, my doctor didn't ask me how I was sleeping, what my stress levels were like during a normal checkup. And so I think there is beginning to be a change of that understanding and awareness of how this is. And you will hear kids say things and not parenting, but like, this makes me anxious or I don't know, this test seems to be stressing me out and things I never would have thought to say. And part of the reason and the struggles that I had as a kid were I would have those feelings and thoughts and I would automatically just usually react in anger or in abject despair because I had no language or understanding for what I was thinking or feeling. And I do see a lot of that changing.

Speaker 4 (16:25)

Now, the hard part is exactly the point. You're talking about this idea of bandwidth, right? How much can the system take care of? Because there are therapists at school now, right? But if there are 600 kids and say two therapists, do the Mathew, each of those kids get what, three minutes a week? So it is one of those things where I feel like the shift is happening and I congratulate us as a society for doing that, but there isn't enough scalability money time, and it still doesn't change that initial stigma, especially for grown men. And I feel like, depending on your upbringing and things like that, about starting these conversations, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (17:09)

I probably talked for hours about the idea of money and funding and there's probably actually plenty of therapists out there, but none of them take insurance or none of them do this. And so then it becomes an affordability issue. We could probably do six days on that topic alone, just the three of us, not necessarily being mental health professionals, and I'm sure the pros could do even more on that topic, but I want to kind of pivot a little bit too more about the podcast itself. And Eric, you said something that was interesting, that you were actually going out to Louisville to speak. I assume that's because of the show. So what have been kind of the changes that have happened, or what is this podcast now created for you that wasn't really a part of your life before?

Speaker 3 (17:51)

Sure, so if I look back on my prior career and I call them acts, very much like an act in a play. And so for almost two decades, I was in the financial world in New York City, so first on Wall Street and then with a Fortune 500 company. And I always like to joke, what better place for somebody with PTSD and anxiety and OCD than to spend every waking moment in the most stressful environment possible? And so when my wife and I moved here to Colorado eleven years ago, a lot of that was around my own mental well being. I had suffered two nervous breakdowns and I knew something had to change for me, both from a physical standpoint, but more importantly from a mental health standpoint. And so kind of act two for me was moving to Colorado, leaving my finance world behind me, and teaching skiing full time in the winter. And I was very into bike racing, road bike racing, mountain bike racing, and so I was coaching those two sports as well. And so that was a lot of fun. It got me in the outdoors and it got me during two things that I loved quite a bit.

Speaker 3 (19:08)

But as Mark and I moved into the podcast, what I really recognized was for the very first time, I was doing something where I could have an impact and where I could inspire others through my own journey and through my own story. And so it started with just a podcast, but from that, as you had mentioned, it's now moving into some speaking engagements. This passy spring, I spoke to a group of high school students and parents in New Hampshire. I'm speaking in louisville. I'm doing a couple of events here in Colorado. At the end of September, I got invited up to a workshop with one of our former podcast guests up in Radium Hot Springs in British Columbia in November. So that's going to be fun. So it's really given me the opportunity to share my story and to let others know that you don't have to suffer in silence, that what I went through is something that I went through so others won't have to. And so it's opened up a whole opportunity both for me and for Mark. I can't tell you how many times we'll be out within the community and somebody will stop us in the supermarket or I'll get a text from a friend who will say, I just listened to episodes such and such and I just wanted to let you know this part of it really resonated with me.

Speaker 3 (20:37)

And we've actually had some people come to us and say, I've never spoken about this before, I don't think you knew this about me. And so it's been really humbling to hear friends, and in some instances complete strangers, reach out to us and share their story for the first time. And it's given us the opportunity to help be a bridge and direct them to some of the resources that are available and just be a sounding board for it's perfectly okay to not always be okay like I like to say, and to see how what we have done has helped to positively impact and change the lives of others. If I had a big checklist that would be at the top and it would be a big check mark in the box, job done.

Speaker 2 (21:25)

So you guys have been doing this for a little while now. At the time that we're talking, you have about 70 plus episodes that are out there already. The fact that you are getting these kinds of opportunities as a result tells me that you are having some success with this show and that you have an audience and you have a community of people that are listening and paying attention and following. So I guess for others who are out there who are thinking about either starting one or who have their own cause based podcast and thinking, oh, I would love to be in the same situation that Erica Marker in. What would be some of your advice as far as either growing or growing the podcast? Which is of course, everybody wants to grow their podcast but also creating those extra opportunities as a result of what you're doing.

Speaker 4 (22:12)

I think it comes down to truth. Are you speaking your truth? The truth? I'll be honest, I spent a ton of time in front of a microphone. That's probably pretty obvious when you hear me speak. But the idea of creating content like this was never I mean, I came from the land of fantasy, I wrote plays, I made movies and so.

Speaker 3 (22:38)

This.

Speaker 4 (22:39)

Is going to sound like a little self agonizing, but I think the reason why we've been so successful is we've done nothing but kind of stay out of the way of people's real stories. Pretty much every single one of our phone calls when we're getting ready to have a guest on, we almost always say something to the effect of we are just here to hear your story and find out what happened to you and how you've been able to change things for the better in your life. And I think that focus and that understanding and the fact that it's funny, like the little catchphrases that have caught on, but it really is true to us. Like, it is perfectly okay to not always be okay. There is always a way through, right? These are the kinds of things that we kind of revisit a lot in our episodes. And each person's story, their unique little fingerprint of how they've come through this can either be an inspiration, or it could be the wake up call that someone needs to hear of. Like, oh, here's another person who's incredibly successful with a wife and a family and all this, and they wake up in the morning and they don't want to get out of bed.

Speaker 4 (23:41)

I feel like that sometimes. Why do I feel like that? I thought I was the only one. I thought I was abnormal, or I thought it was perfectly normal. And that's the other flip. I was answering your kind of first question about that. I was like, oh, is this really a problem or isn't that's the funniest part to me? And that was my experience. Eric would, like, hide it and wear these facades and masks because he knew. He was like, people are going to think I'm crazy or this or that. I had the opposite. It was like, doesn't everybody think that life sucks and they don't want to wake up this morning? Doesn't everybody think they're not worth the love that they get from the people around them? That was how I thought about it. And so even for two people, as close as Eric and I are, our stories are so different in the way our mental health challenges showed up and even the way we present. Personally, I'm a classic smiling, depressive, first person with a joke, first person to start a conversation, the person that walks into a room and wants to know everyone's name.

Speaker 4 (24:37)

But on the inside, I'm thinking none of them want to talk to me. And so there is this flip of really allowing people to tell that true story. And the thing that I take away from it the most, and I take most seriously, is we all kind of have a trauma, right? We all have things that we've gone through in our life. Nobody gets through this thing clean. But I really want to focus on this to thrive. Like, how do we overcome? What do we do? To feed our brains and bodies in such a way that we can be just a slightly better version of ourselves and not this idea of perfection that will make you crazy forever. And I'm that person who wants everything exactly the way it's supposed to be. And I've had to learn to wake up and be like, hey, today, I'm just going to be a little better today. And those little lessons can not only change your life, but you'll be so much better with everyone else around you. Mathew, sister, brother, father, whatever you are to these other people, it doesn't have to be on that grand of a scale, because we didn't think of it that way.

Speaker 4 (25:39)

But looking back on it, it really is about that integrity and that attachment to just telling people's real stories and making sure you understand that there is hope. I really think that's it. Eric, do you mind? On the right track there, I was.

Speaker 3 (25:53)

Just going to very quickly add two things. One, find something that you really are truly passionate about. When I look back to December of 2020, starting a podcast was the furthest thing from my mind. I was very happy to speak to people about my own story, but I didn't think I was going to be speaking about my story and other people's stories on air. So I would say one, when you find something that you're really passionate about, it will come. And the other is through creating your podcast, things will morph and things will change and you'll come into your own identity. And so I think that's another important piece. Mark and I sometimes now look back onto our first few episodes and we just recorded episode 95 yesterday and we look at where we started versus where we are now. And we didn't go in with the intention of changing how the show works, but we just allowed it to morph over time. And so I think that's another really important piece for people is just start. And once you start, sometimes that's the hardest step and then let things happen and see where they go.

Speaker 3 (27:07)

And there are so many incredible podcasts out there. And when I think just about the mental health space, there are so many great mental health podcasts that exist out there, but each one kind of has their own unique niche within the space. And I think that's what allows so many of us to have a place and to have a voice.

Speaker 2 (27:25)

A lot of inspiration from you guys. One is podcasts. But honestly too. Just as humans. Knowing all the various struggles that you've both been through or continue to go through. And that you can be here and be present and share your journey. Share your story. Try to help make the world a better place for everybody else around you. Is truly inspiring and noble and you both should hold your head up high knowing that you are doing some real good in the world. Speaking of doing good in the world, we always like to incorporate some sort of additional cause that we want to promote and talk about. Today we are talking about Sacred Cycle. You can learn more about them at the Sacred Cycle.org and this is a place for creating affordable counseling and affordable mental health services for people out there.

Speaker 3 (28:15)

It's an organization that was founded by a friend of mine here in 2013 and she had suffered childhood sexual trauma and she was able to find her real true healing through mountain biking. And so the organization was started so we could work at the intersection of. Mountain biking so empowering and reintegrating women who have suffered from their own sexual trauma through a combination of mountain biking and building community. And I've had the honor of starting with them as a mountain bike coach a few years ago. I then took over and ran their mountain bike program for them and my biggest honor was they asked me to take a seat on the board last October. So I'm the treasurer of the board and still help to oversee mountain biking and still coach participants. And so for me it really intersects with the overall mission of what we're doing with our podcast because clearly there's mental health crossovers between what Sacred Cycle does and what we're doing. And through my own personal journey, just working with the survivors within the organization has really helped my own healing journey. I love all of the women that I've had the honor to ride with.

Speaker 3 (29:34)

I'm really proud of the work that the organization does here in Colorado.

Speaker 2 (29:37)

Excellent. Well, once again folks, that is the sacredcycle.org. We will have a link to them as well as a link to the website for From Survivor to Thriver where you can find on Apple, Google and Spotify. Before I let you go, Eric and Mark, you've already given great advice for folks who might be doing a podcast, so we're going to skip that as the final question today. But I guess when it comes to really the topic at hand, which is removing the stigma to mental health and ensuring that we can all have positive health, as you say, from the neck up, what's one piece of advice you can give to anybody listening who may be struggling or maybe doesn't even know if they are struggling with some sort of mental health issues?

Speaker 3 (30:22)

If you feel like something isn't right and by that I mean sometimes we have off days and sometimes we may have a few off days in a row. But if you feel like something is off for a consistent period of time. Find someone that you trust. A family member. A very close friend or a loved one and just sit down and say. I feel like something isn't right. Can I talk to you? Because very often by just taking that first step of having the conversation, so much weight will be lifted off your shoulders and having somebody who will sit and listen without passing judgment is such a powerful tool and in many cases that is often the first step to finding the help that is needed. I know in my case when I finally started to speak to my wife about what was happening, it completely opened the door to finding therapy and then all of these other amazing treatment modalities over the years. But reach out and start that conversation, you'll be better for it.

Speaker 4 (31:40)

And the only thing I would add to that is keep going, right? Unfortunately, in the health and the mental health space the first answer we come up with isn't always the complete or whole answer. And so make sure that those conversations continue. And you really have to sort of be your own advocate to find the best answers for you. For a lot of people, eating a little bit better and doing some yoga is enough, and it's the right answer. For other people, it includes a wide variety of treatments and options that we're only beginning to scratch the surface of. So you're going to have to take part in the answer for yourself. So it isn't easy. There isn't a magic bullet that we would all love to have. It isn't the easiest answer, but there are answers and they're out there, so go find them.

Speaker 2 (32:27)

And if I could just reinforce what both of you said. Which is. Yes. Talking to someone. Even just going for that first or second time. Can take a huge weight off of your shoulders and off of your chest and make you realize that what you are going through is real and in a lot of cases. Not your fault. Which some people like to take kind of blame for how they feel. How they react. What is going on with them. And so I would highly encourage anybody thinking about it, go find some sort of resource and, yeah, diet, sleep and exercise can help. They will not be the panacea to mental health, but they can certainly aid and assist in putting you on a better track to mental health.

Speaker 4 (33:16)

It's a great start. Yeah, it's a great start. And I can tell you right now, 90% of the people we talk to who are having some sort of mental health issue or injury, they're not sleeping and they're not sleeping well. And it's a great indicator. It's always been my first indicator as somebody who actually sleeps pretty well. Now I feel a lot better.

Speaker 2 (33:34)

Somebody with two five year olds, I wish I was getting more sleep.

Speaker 4 (33:39)

That's external, man. That's something I can't yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:42)

But the show is from Survivor to Thriver. Again, we'll have a link to the show in the show notes and on the website Callspots.org and the Sacredcycle.org. Eric DeRosa, Mark Fernandes, thank you so much for joining us here on Causepods today.

Speaker 3 (33:56)

Thank you so much, Mathew.

Speaker 1 (33:59)

Thanks for listening to this episode of Causepods. If you've been inspired by the work of our guest, please check out the show notes to this episode in your podcasting app or@causepods.org there you will find links to their show, their website, their podcast, links on Apple, Google, Spotify, as well as a link to support the charity that they highlighted here in this episode. You will also find@causepods.org a way to subscribe to this show on your favorite podcasting app. How to sign up to be a guest on this show. And a link to our Facebook group which is going to have special resources just for the folks who are podcasting.

Speaker 2 (34:34)

For a good cause and I can.

Speaker 1 (34:36)

Tell you right now we've got one great deal from our friends at Pod page. But you're only going to learn about.

Speaker 2 (34:41)

It and get that special deal if.

Speaker 1 (34:42)

You are a member of the Facebook group for Causepods. And before I go, I should say thank you in particular. This show is edited and produced by Ben Killoy of the military Veteran Dad's podcast and what a great job he has done. And all this is made possible because of the great support that I receive from Shannon Rojas here@thepokastconsultant.com. Once again, if you want to learn more, go to cosponsor.org. Thank you so much and we will see you next time. And odd cause pods.